The Catholic Bishops' Conference of England and Wales has published the following:
More than 4700 people gathered in Cathedrals across England and Wales this weekend (12th and 13th March ) as part of their preparation to be received into the Catholic Church.
It is estimated that around 900 of those people will be received into the Catholic Church and registered as members of the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham during Holy Week; this includes 61 former Anglican clergy in addition to the five who have already been ordained as Catholic priests.
That seems to take most of the guess-work out of determining the truth of the divergent reports we've been reading.
UPDATE: Here's more complete statistical information from the Ordinariate Portal.
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I'm curious as to when something might be said about those that have already converted in the past but would like to become part of the Ordinariate. It would seem it should take no more than a stating of preference, no preparation or process of being received necessary.
I think that in referring to 61 former Anglican clergy it is referring to those that have just left and are in the process of being received and potentially ordained. Are there not others that have already gone through the process over the previous years that are interested in becoming Ordinariate priests as well? With 900 total coming in at this point, aren't there thousands of others that have preceded them that will now join the Ordinariate?
Daniel,
You said: I'm curious as to when something might be said about those that have already converted in the past but would like to become part of the Ordinariate. It would seem it should take no more than a stating of preference, no preparation or process of being received necessary.
The apostolic constitution Anglicanorum coetibus states that such individuals must manifest their desire to join the ordinariate in writing. I'm guessing that there will be two major contingents in the formative stage of the ordinariate.
>> The first contingent have discussed the situation with their present pastors, who probably have invited them to act as sponsors for those who are coming into the Catholic Church to be part of the ordinariate — or are they coming into the ordinariate to be part of the Catholic Church? Well, whichever. Those who act as sponsors probably either have already submitted their signed statements saying that they wish to be part of the ordinariate or will do so when those who are candidates for reception do so. Since the ordinariate has not erected any parishes yet, the timing of the submission is really pretty moot.
>> The second contingent will find their way to parishes of the ordinariate and submit their signed statements of intent through the parishes, probably around Pentecost.
Once the ordinariate gets through the formative stage, there probably will be a steady trickle of those who choose to join the ordinariate in the future.
Norm.
"Since the ordinariate has not erected any parishes yet, the timing of the submission is really pretty moot."
It would seem to me that knowing how many potential people might transfer to the Ordiariate and where they are located might have some bearing on where you might erect a parish. In the United States for instance, if you only talk about persons preparing to enter the Catholic Church you have left out Father Phillips and all of the members of Anglican Use parishes.
Daniel,
You wrote: It would seem to me that knowing how many potential people might transfer to the Ordiariate and where they are located might have some bearing on where you might erect a parish.
That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish. I think that the administration of the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham probably has its hands full coordinating the preparation, reception, and ordination of entact parishes right now. Those who live near one or another of the forty parishes will naturally enroll once the parishes are "up and running." The erection of parishes for those who are already Catholic and are not near one of the incoming parishes probably will have to wait — but it's also safe to assume that the diocesan parishes to which those people belong are serving their current needs.
You wrote: In the United States for instance, if you only talk about persons preparing to enter the Catholic Church you have left out Father Phillips and all of the members of Anglican Use parishes.
That's an entirely different situation, though. The existing "Anglican Use" parishes here in the States will transition as entact parishes from their current dioceses to the respective ordinariate, in most cases with their current clergy, basically continuing their present operation through the paper shuffle (excardination and incardination of the clergy, transferral of deeds for parish property, and fill out name and contact information and sign the index card with the sentence "I wish to be a member of the ordinariate." or something similar at the top at the end of mass for the parishonners).
Norm.
"It's also safe to assume that the diocesan parishes to which those people belong are serving their current needs."
It seems like if this is the case, setting up an Ordinariate seems like going through a lot of unnecessary trouble.
I believe the desire for something like a Personal Ordinariate had been around long before Anglicanorum Coetibus was issued. While there may have been groups (along with their clergy) that desired to come into the Catholic Church entact in the past, they didn't have a choice. Seeing as how there is talk of setting up some very small parishes, it would seem a prudent thing to see if there aren't pockets of past converts that might become a parish. You'd set up a parish with perhaps 5 people preparing to enter the Church, and then expect a group of 30 people that had already converted over the past ten years drive 50 miles if they want to participate in the Ordinariate? It seems like a good deal of discussion of how a small number of converts will support the priests, without giving any consideration to how many others might be ready to join them by just filling out a form.
Daniel,
I wrote: The erection of parishes for those who are already Catholic and are not near one of the incoming parishes probably will have to wait — but it's also safe to assume that the diocesan parishes to which those people belong are serving their current needs.
You responded: "It's also safe to assume that the diocesan parishes to which those people belong are serving their current needs."
It seems like if this is the case, setting up an Ordinariate seems like going through a lot of unnecessary trouble.
You took the last half of my sentence out of context, and thus distorted the intended meaning pretty badly. Nearly all of the individuals about whom I was speaking came into the Catholic Church before the initial announcemnet of the apostolic constitution Anglicanorum coetibus, and thus with the expecation that they would use the current form of the Roman liturgy, and under their current Roman Rite pastors, for the rest of their lives. They would not have done so if the Roman liturgy with which they now worship and the Roman Rite pastors who lead that worship did not meet their spiritual needs. By contrast, those who are preparing to enter the Catholic Church and the ordinariate during holy week are doing so with the explicit promise that they will become congregations of the personal ordinariate, under the leadership of their former Anglican pastors, by Pentecost. The ordinariate's first priority clearly should be to fulfill the promise made to those who are now coming into the Catholic Church and the legitimate expectations created by that promise. The former Anglicans who are already members of the Catholic Church are not going anywhere, and there will be plenty of time to address them after the promises are fulfilled.
It's also important to remember that there is no master registry of former Anglicans who are now members of the Catholic Church, and that some of those individuals may wish to remain under the pastoral leadership of their present diocesan pastors and bishops rather than transferring to the ordinariate — and they have the right to do so. It will take a modest effort to identify former Anglicans who wish to become part of the ordinariate (one can ask current pastors to take names and contact information of those who are interested) and then to analyze the responses to determine where there are sufficient clusters of such individuals to form new parishs or quasi-parishes. It simply is not reasonable to expect that the current staff of the ordinariate can do so while they have their hands full coordinating the reception of over forty congregations and the reception and ordinations of over sixty clergy between now and Pentecost.
Norm.
If you read the full report it gives the exact number of persons as 795, of whom 61 were priests, thus 734 laity. The 900 is either journalistic license, or more probably some more people who are in the pipeline but were not elected last weekend.
Certainly not all the priests were at the rites this weekend though I suspect the great majority were. I think around 20% of our laity were missing so if that were replicated across the board it would be around 900.
Barry,
You said: If you read the full report it gives the exact number of persons as 795, of whom 61 were priests, thus 734 laity. The 900 is either journalistic license, or more probably some more people who are in the pipeline but were not elected last weekend.
The report did say that there were some who, for various reasons, could not attend.
Also, this may seem like splitting hairs, but candidates for reception into full communion are NOT "elected" and do NOT write their names in the Book of the Elect. The sad confusion over this point illustrates why the use of the "combined rites" is not a good idea.
JTOL, the RCIA has the Order of Election on the First Sunday of Lent, the scrutinies on the Third, Fourth, and Fifth Sundays of Lent, and typically some of the presentations on Palm Sunday — but nothing special on the Second Sunday of Lent. Thus, methinks the Second Sunday of Lent just might be a good time for candidates for reception into full communion to meet with the bishop, rather than having a combined rite on the First Sunday of Lent. I'm not sure why, but I need to file thought that for future reference….
Norm.
Only time will tell, however, it appears that at this point many more are coming than some anticipated. In my opinion the Ordinariate will grow as time goes on and the CoE further accepts more and more doctrines that are not in line with the Christian faith.
Hopefully the US Ordinariate, once it is established. will advertise that we exist, I really don't think that many of the Anglicans/TEC members are aware of it. My brother who is a liberal member of TEC and I had a brief conversation yesterday, and he doesn't really have any idea of what is happening. Since he has a Ph.d from Princeton he thinks he knows it all and made fun of Incarnation, although he wasn't knowledgeable that it existed and lives a few miles from the church. This was the first conversation I have had with him about religion as we don't agree on either that or politics.
I will be visiting hm in July and asked if he would take me to the church and that is how we got into the conversation. Hopefully I will be able to meet Christian when I visit and that the Ordinariate will be established here and the priests ordained.
Thank you for posting this, Fr Phillips.
That would seem to take some of the guess work and speculation out of the discordant dialog about "numbers".
It is good to hear that 65 Church of England priests will be crossing into the ordinariate, since the number we've heard for some weeks now was "forty to fifty". We must also keep in mind that more will likely come across between Easter and Advent.
P.K.T.P.
Fr. Christopher,
Likewise, thank you for posting the figures!
From your quotation: It is estimated that around 900 of those people will be received into the Catholic Church and registered as members of the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham during Holy Week; this includes 61 former Anglican clergy in addition to the five who have already been ordained as Catholic priests.
These numbers are wonderfully encouraging! Additionally, I followed the link to the Ordinariate Portal and counted forty groups on the listing on that site — which is five more than previously reported. The acorn will be a sappling by Easter!
The real challenge, though, will be for only 900 parishonners to support 66 clergy and their families.
Norm.
Norm,
I believe (although I'm open to correction), that about half of the 66 are either retired or non-stipendiary (worker-priests) and will have their own sources of income, at least in part. Of the others, I understand that several have already found, or have been offered, suitable part- or full-time work. This will make the financial burden easier, but you're right that the "first-wavers" will have financial challenges ahead of them. All we can do (apart from putting our hands in our pockets) is to trust that God, who has blessed the Ordinariate already, will not allow it to fail. In all things, glory to God.
I have not managed to count more than a handful of priests who were stipendiary. I would love to know who the 61 are. My guess is that regardless of the size of the group of priests the majority will be retired or NSM. The absence of any proper statistics makes me suspicious. The only reason for not disclosing names and numbers at this stage is that they are not as anticipated. The figure of 600 laity seems the best supported estimate. That will pay for two priests if they are all generous in their giving.
Simon Heans, Ivan Aquilina, James Bradley, Ed Tomlinson, Paul Burch, Matthew Pittam, David Elliott, Mark Eliot Smith, Robert Page, Anthony Homer, Jeff Woolnough, Lee Bennett, and David Lashbrook are all stipendiary clergy (or stipendiary laymen or something – I can't decide what they think their status is). I'm sure there are others, even if I can't think of them immediately.
+ Messrs Chinery and Greatbatch in the Southwest. (1/2) Len Black in Inverness. That makes 15 1/2 stipendiary priests. If 61 is the total then 3/4 or thereabouts are retired or NSM. How does anyone imagine that 600 people are going to house, salary and pension 15 1/2 priests ? Len Black has taken early retirement so his group of 5 in Inverness will not be too burdened.
Fr. Crosbie, as already has been stated in comments, and as it is outlined in the Apostolic Constitution itself, priests of the Ordinariate are able to minister anyplace in the Latin Rite. I have no doubt there are many parishes, hospitals, convents, and other Catholic institutions which will be only too happy to have more priests available.
When we first founded our Anglican Use parish, my wife and I had three very young children, and another baby just about to be born. In addition to my small stipend from the parish, I also helped out in a nearby parish, and served as chaplain in a local Carmelite convent, plus I served as night chaplain on duty in a military hospital. We were able to live quite comfortably on the combination of those stipends, and I'm sure similar situations will present themselves in the Ordinariate.
Thinking further, David Waller, Jonathan Redvers Harris, Ron Crane, Chris Marshall, Ivor Morris.
Of retireds/NSMs, etc., I can think of John Hunwicke, Richard Martin, Peter Clarke.
Father Andrew Crosbie,
You wrote: The absence of any proper statistics makes me suspicious.
There may be a bit of cultural difference here between Anglican (all Protestant?) and Catholic authorities.
As an active, life-long Catholic I've observed it is quite typical for the church to be silent about issues that it does not deem important, necessary, or relevant to the general laity. I can imagine quite an easy case being made for it not being any of the church's business to release the names of clergy or laity who have expressed a desire to join the ordinariate or any diocese for that matter. This is a personal matter between the individual and his/her current, or in this case, future pastor/rector. Once the individual has joined the church, he or she would be included in the official aggregated church census numbers.
Less focus on the temporal aspects of this whole extraordinary development between the Anglican, Lutheran, and Catholic churches might ease the incredible angst many commenters on this blog are understandably experiencing. Trust in the Lord. He will provide.
Stephen,
You wrote: I believe (although I'm open to correction), that about half of the 66 are either retired or non-stipendiary (worker-priests) and will have their own sources of income, at least in part.
When the gap is more than more than an order of magnitude, a factor of two is not going to close it.
Of course, every little bit does help one to get closer to a solution!
You wrote: Of the others, I understand that several have already found, or have been offered, suitable part- or full-time work.
Yes. Msgr. Newton did indicate that the staff of the ordinariate was exploring such possibilities in his press conference after the mass of ordination and the announcement of his appointment as the first ordinary on 15 January.
Norm.
As fas as the budget is concerned, we need to remember that the Catholic Church has a major shortage of clergy. Thus, I wouldn't be surprised if many clergy entering the Ordinariate were offered pastoral work in a diocesan parish in addition to their duties with their own parish or mission. And there's work in hospitals, schools, etc.
For many Continuing Anglican clergy, the Ordinariate might represent their best hope for full time employment as a priest!
What continuing Anglican clergy ? None of the TTAC have even been given a timetable as yet. All of those who are first wave are C of E ( oops + one former SEC in Inverness ).
Sector Chaplaincies are normally structured to reflect the population. Thus the majority posts are allocated to the C of E as the bisgest group. I doubt there are 15 RC vacancies in the Sector Chaplaincies. If there are they need not necessarily be in the appropriate place to assist the groups.
Michael,
You wrote: As fas as the budget is concerned, we need to remember that the Catholic Church has a major shortage of clergy. Thus, I wouldn't be surprised if many clergy entering the Ordinariate were offered pastoral work in a diocesan parish in addition to their duties with their own parish or mission. And there's work in hospitals, schools, etc.
Although basically true, the snag here is that Roman Catholic parishes and dioceses generally are not accustomed to paying their clergy a salary that's adequate to support a family. Much of the compensation of Roman Catholic clergy is "in kind" — room and board provided in a rectory, etc. The expense of maintaining a parish rectory isn't going away just because one of the parochial vicars assigned to the parish is married and thus does not live there. Many parishes and dioceses also have tight budgets, so it will take some major financial restructuring for them to afford to pay a respectable salary to any clergy of the ordinariate appointed in that capacity.
That said, I have seen indications in official comments that chaplaincies and teaching positions in schools are possible sources of gainful employment for ordinariate clergy. Additionally, some clergy of the ordinariate may continue to work at secular occupations that are compatible with their ministerial role.
Norm.
It seems that the phrase Sector Chaplainces needs to be explained. Paid Chaplaincies such as Prison, Hospital, Forces in the UK are funded by the respective bodies. In one way or other by the state. The numbers of posts allocated to each denomination is calculated by the size of that group in the actual population thus the C of E has the vast majority of these posts at their disposal as the sending church. The C of E being the largest church in the UK. I dare say there are vacancies in RC diocesan structures but not ones that are used to forking out a package of £50 K per annum for a priest. RC priests are not renumerated as Anglican priests . A desire on behalf of Roman diocese to have more priests does not necessarily mean that they can afford Anglican costs. Stipend, tax and pension for these 15 will come to £600 000 per annum minimum.
If they haven't already figured it out, I hope the Ordinariate clergy soon do — they're not going to be necessarily living with the same income as they might have had as Anglicans. This does call for a certain amount of sacrifice, after all. Nor are they likely to find, at first, one position that will pay them their complete salary.
As I described elsewhere, at first one usually has to cobble together one's own living…a stipend from an Ordinariate community if there is one, perhaps another bit from the local diocesan parish, or helping out with confessions and Masses someplace else. There are all sorts of ways to earn a living while carrying out a full and spiritually rewarding priestly ministry –but one does have to be willing to be creative and flexible!
In the Church of England, the current average costs for a parish with one cleric living in a diocesan house are made up of a stipend of £ 22,320 National Insurance and pension contribution totalling £ 10,410 with cost of Clergy housing £ 10,860; Church of England parish clergy do not receive the lavish support of many of their brethren and sistren in TEC.
Dear Flabellum,
Those look like splendid numbers to us "continuing" folk!
Total RC package: £ 43,590
US exchange: $ 70,000
I live on less than half that now with a wife and 6 children, and most of my chapel expenses are personally funded. By comparison, I can't imagine the oppulent lifestyle of a CoE clergyperson! It will hopefully do the souls of those leaving good to have to drink Franzia boxed vintage verses the £ 50 per bottle stuff or to try shopping Aldi (aka Albrect's Discout). And I would guess few have young children at home, if any at all.
Bring on the austerity!
As Conchur has mentioned, those figures are for Church of England clergy. Catholic clergy rarely get over £ 10,000 which, at your exchange rate, is just over US$16,000. Doesn't look all that great, does it? Of course, accommodation and food etc are thrown in.
I don't know of any CoE clergy drinking such expensive bottles of wine, apart from the bishops. You do love to paint a picture of yourself as an all-sacrificing Christian, so much better than everybody else, don't you? A true drama queen.
I haven't commented about clerical pay whatsoever. You are mistaken.
Sorry, I meant Flabellum. Was typing this during an earthquake and my mind was in two places. Apologies.
Although at first glance the numbers signing up for the Ordinariate might seem significant, within the bigger scheme of things thery're actually quite small. Still I guess it's early days yet.
That's not the RC package, that's the package they leave behind with the Established Church. Catholic clergy of any rank are rarely paid more than £10,000 p.a. (plus accomodation) with no pension fund. Each diocese has a Sick and Retired Priests Fund which supports the aged and infirm, and there are some small contributory schemes such as the Secular Clergy Common Fund.
I'm sure the English RC diocesan finance offices are well aware that a priest with a family cannot be expected to subsist, let alone live on £10,000 p.a. They will have to set up some arrangement: at least they do not have to pay for the training of these "new recruits."
For comparison, the State Retirement pension for one individual, topped up by Pension Credit for those without alternative resources, is currently about £6000 p.a. That does not include food, heating, personal health insurance and some measure of travel allowances, nor supplements like stole fees or Mass stipends. Yet it is possible to live in decent frugality on £6K. So comparatively speaking an unmarried priest does quite well on £10K. And it should be noted that the benefit levels for the unemployed are considerably less than the retirement pension.
It does look as though the financial aspect is the elephant in the room, insufficiently addressed until now. Didn't the RC E-W Bishops set up a trust fund for the priests of the Ordinariate? How's that coming along? Though at this time of very low interest rates there are difficulties in relying on invested funds.
This matter requires seriously creative accounting, and great trust in God's providence.
It is interesting that there seems to be very little support for the Ordinariate in the north of England. I hope some detailed statistical information will follow. It does seem that only half the clergy are currently stipendiary ( though some may have working wives) but looking at the photos of various Ordinariate groups they include children and a fair proportion of fairly elderly folk, so the financial viability of the Ordinariate will be a problem I am sure. As far as I can see no group is continuing to worship in its old buildings..will an afternoon slot in the local RC parish really be a means of mission? Will all the clergy be ordained I wonder..a couple have already crossed the Tiber and come back once, and one was a seminarian I believe who left, married and became an Anglican priest..But the RC authorities appear to want to be accomodating. It will be interesting to see how it develops over the next few years. I will be interested to see what the Anglican patrimony turns out to be…many of the clergy have been using RC rites in their parishes for years.
It is interesting that there seems to be very little support for the Ordinariate in the north of England.
Support for the Ordinariate "oop North" is harder to quantify because +Jarrett is the only PEV not to have joined. It is far easier for clergy in the Province of Canterbury, as opposed to York, to hit the pilgrim trail towards Rome simply because they have their own (former) bishops leading them.
I would imagine as things get more settled and the Ordinariate gets up and running you will see drips and drabs of Northern clerical and lay movement start to occur and once the General Synod finally extinguishes any hope of a Catholic future in the Church of England next year, the movement will likely rise to a level similar to the South.
Dear Mr. Terry,
I am confused by your personal attack(s) against me. I confess that I misunderstood Mr. Flabellum's statement which has been set strait by others (gratias ago); but my point remains the same which was that a clergyman with a family and all its obligations can make it on much less than some may realize. I know this from personal experience which, at least for me, is a very valuable datum. I am not interested in whatever your agenda is which appears to be personal and derogatory; I am concerned with the success of the Ordinariates which will be in need of young clergy, many of us with families, who may need the encouragement that it can be done on a frugal budget. Any sacrifice made is for a good purpose and is praiseworthy. The Ordinariates are going to be built in most areas by those willing to live the austere life of the early church clergy.
I have no personal beef against you. However, I am worried, as are others here, about your attitude and others like you. You seem to want the Ordinariate established on your terms. You want unity with the Pope but want nothing to do with the rest of the Catholic church, 'round the corner' as you said. Which makes me wonder how you can talk about unity when you quite clearly state that you have no desire for it. If you want to come into the Catholic church, you have to accept it warts and all. Nobody is perfect, certainly not the TAC either, that's why we need God to help us.
The Ordinariates will start small, for sure, but it will grow. In the meantime, clergy like yourself cannot rely on your small congregations supporting you and your family ad infinitum. The local Catholics can and will help out in any way they can but if you refuse to have anything to do with them, what do you want them to do? The model being set by the Ordinariate in England and Wales is showing the way. Rather than trying to set themselves of as better than the rest, they've all been establishing good relations with the Catholic parishes they are integrating with, and have been surprised with the reception they have gotten. I haven't read a single report of receiving the cold shoulder from any parish or bishop, despite the naysayers.
If you really want the Ordinariate to work, perhaps a change in attitude, and a little more humility, might be in order. As I mentioned to Mr. P.K.T.P. earlier, the Pope wants the gifts of Anglican patrimony to be shared with the wider Catholic church. If you won't have anything to do with us, how are we to benefit?